Crown Hill Cemetery Indianapolis IN The MK ULTRA Staff 1996
by Chris Weiler and transcribed by Ellen the Felon Marshall
I sat down with Alex Zander this crisp wintry evening in Indianapolis in his living
room at the ‘Goth Manor’, amid candlelight and photographs. You can sense
Alex’s influences everywhere, from his video collection to the huge Warhol
image of Marilyn Monroe on the wall. An entire room is filled with signed 8X10
promo shots of various performers. I would say ‘autographed1, but these are
different. They contain personal messages to Alex…and he cherishes them.
There was the occasional visit from Sinclair and Nola (Alex’s two black cats), and
the darkness around us was more comforting that imposing. It was the typical
Alex Zander mood atmosphere. The type of surroundings that make you seek
pleasure in every dark, secret thought you’ve ever had. It’s a large old house,
with ceilings and woodwork that remind you of old friends. Shadows danced
over the antique plaster. Somehow, it all seemed familiar…
It is a time during which Alex is facing great adversity in his life. His trust and
friendship have been violated. He is struggling to get the next issue of MK Ultra
out to his loyal readers. And again, he is finding his future to be uncertain and
very much out of his control. The music in the background was a testimony of his
feelings…the dark, emotional music that make you question your own sense of
being. But as usual, Alex is forging through without shedding a drop of blood.
It should be noted that at first, Alex didn’t want to do this interview, for fear that
he might be perceived as self-serving. But just as his interviews get you closer to
the minds behind our favorite music and movies, I thought this would provide a
unique opportunity for MK Ultra readers to unearth the mind behind MK Ultra. He
reluctantly agreed, and sharing a couple beers, we spoke of MK Ultra.
Chris Weiler: Tell me about fhe birth of MK Ultra.
Alex Zander: I did freelance rock journalism for about ten years, and my musical
tastes were always changing. I was always open to something different, and the
publications that. I wrote for at first were really attracted to that, but I guess I just
got too weird for them. I was looking for more emotional music, more…! don’t
know if I want to say spiritual, but…there was just more to music than just image. I
was looking for something deeper, more emotional, and also intense at the
same time. And when 1 started interviewing bands like that, the stories would
either get refused-or censored, and they would censor the parts that I thought
were very important…things that might offend some people, whether it was the
use of a four-letter word, or talk of suicide. So when I did the first Type O
Negative interview in 1994, the magazine I wrote for wouldn’t run it, and the
one that wanted to take it said it was a mockery of Goth music, which is absurd.
And Rock Out Censorship, who wanted to run it, had gone bankrupt and
couldn’t run the story until about a year later.
CW: A mockery of Goth music?
AZ: It was a Goth magazine, and they said they couldn’t run it because it was a
mockery of Goth music. So I had a fit, and I threatened that Í would go and start
my own magazine, and everybody around me said, yeah, man, do it! And I
said, well, I can’t do it and they asked, why not? I felt like I didn’t know the first
thing about printing, about publishing, and they all said, sure you do, you’ve
been doing it for so long. So it took a !ot of money, a lot of effort, and a lot of time,
and I created MK Ultra.
CW: And the name, MK Ultra?
AZ: I had no idea what I was going to call this thing at the beginning. I was
looking for something that was deep, something that I believed in, something
sarcastic, maybe something that people wouldn’t get. And I was watching
Dateline NBC or one of those news programs, and they had a story about the MK Ultra experiments, which were of the government’s experiments with LSD from the ‘50’s and late ‘60’s, and what it did to the people who used the drug. And I thought well there you have it. The
all-powerful US Government doing sneaky bad things to people and saying that
if we do it, it’s wrong. And those are like some of the same views they have on
rock music. So I thought it was a little sarcastic, and it meant mind control, but it
had a cool ring to it. So I wrote that down really quick so I wouldn’t forget it.
And that was the name that stuck on to me.
CW: You mentioned that there is more to music than image, but you seem to be
into some image-oriented bands like KISS and Marilyn Manson.
AZ: Yeah, but 1 really don’t look at them as ¡mage-oriented, I mean, it is sort-of
cartoonish, but it’s different, and that is what I like. I like anything that’s different.
There’s only one KISS. There’s only one Marilyn Manson. I just like anything
original. For instance, with KISS, there were a lot of imitators, but they were the
only ones who stood the test of time. And maybe Marilyn Manson is a bit of an
Alice Cooper rip-off, but I think that they’re a lot ruder, and a lot nastier. They’re
doing what the New York Dolls couldn’t do in the l70’s. They’re just completely
different. There’s no one right now that looks like Marilyn Manson or sounds like
Marilyn Manson, and no one looks or sounds like KISS. It’s just different and
original. I think originality is very cool.
Dayton OH with Gene Simmons Nov 1992
CW: Speaking of Marilyn Manson, it seems like you were into bands like Marilyn
Manson and Nine Inch Nails for years before they made it big. Do you have a
“sixth sense” about these bands?
AZ: That’s a question I’ve been asked even before I went into journalism when I
was a DJ on FM radio or in clubs. Again, it goes back to originality. Industrial
music has been around for a very long time, longer than I’ve been into it But
Nine Inch Nails represented something completely different. ‘Nails was
emotional. I mean, here was a guy who wasn’t afraid to admit that he had been
hurt in a relationship. Here was a guy who was man enough to say, yeah, I’ve
felt like killing myself, and lived through it. He was a survivor. And that’s what I
got from ‘Nails, and they didn’t make it for a long time. Their album sat on the
shelves for a long time before it took off like it did. And someone passed it on to
me and said, here, you’ll dig this. And I played it endlessly. That was a rough
time in my life, so I was able to relate to it. I got into Marilyn Manson through
Nine Inch Nails because, of course, they were on Trent’s label…he discovered
them and produced them. And it was completely different. It was anarchy,
rage, and had all the high profile that punk never had the chance to get. And it
was meaner, nastier, and truer then punk because these guys were mutilating
themselves and were about mutilation. I don’t think that’s something that
everyone should do, but if you’re getting paid to do it, and enjoy it, and you
want to do that to yourself and watch it then that’s great. But I think they’re all
very good players, too. Trent Reznor’s a great player, and everyone in
‘Manson’s a great musician. I mean, you can’t sell two million records on a
look…you have to have some talent behind it. And they’ve made it without the
help of MTV.
CW: Do you still listen to them?
AZ: I listen to ‘ Nails alot, and not what people think that I listen to. I’d sooner
listen to ‘Something I Can Never Have’ rather than ‘Head Like A Hole’. I’d rather
listen to ‘Hurt* than ‘Closer*.
CW: …the songs that aren’t covered as much by MTV or radio.
AZ: Well not so much that. I just think they’re more emotional songs. They talk
to me more, and 1 can relate to them more. I don’t listen to them and feel like
killing myself. I just know where these guys are coming from, and what they’re
singing about. With ‘Manson, I can’t listen to their new album as much as I could
listen to their first album. Just because now it’s so fucking commercial. You see a
frat kid with his ball cap and flannel with a Marilyn Manson t-shirt under it…these
guys are spoon-fed everything. They don’t know what it’s like to be rebellious at
anything. I guess that’s why I’m not so much into the new album as I was the first
one.
CW: The same thing that happened to bands like The Red Hot Chili Peppers?
AZ: The Chili Peppers, as far as I’m concerned, just completely sold out. You
listen to Blood Sugar Sex Magik, with ‘Give It Away1 and ‘Suck My Kiss’, and what
the fuck is this’ Under The Bridge* crap? I mean, they had a hit with that, so they
put out a weak album. Sure they’re good players, and there’s still a lot of talent in
that band, but they’re no fun anymore. They’ve turned serious. They pulled a
Van Halen on us.
CW: What up and coming bands are you into now?
Ft Wayne IN Shirley Manson Oct 1996
AZ: They’re not really up and coming anymore, but everyone knows I’ve listened
to Garbage for a long time now. I don’t know, I’m into this band called Azoic
who don’t even have a CD out, they have a tape out and their CD is being
pressed now. But there’s nothing commercial about them. As far as who I think is
going to make it, I always said that about Garbage. Mace, I think has the
potential to do something big. There’s a few major labels looking at them, and
they have the image that is marketable. Controversial or not, they still have
people like us who like them, the girls like them, and they’re fun and dancey
enough to have a pop element there.
CW: MK Ultra features and has featured bands that might be considered
“underground”. What draws you to that type of music?
AZ: That goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It’s original and
something different. Y’know, alternative music used to mean Devo or A Flock of
Seagulls, just a wide spectrum. But I just don’t even like the term ‘alternative’,
because it’s not anymore. I‘d rather see a band in a theater or club than in an
arena. The more people there are, I think it just takes away from it unless it’s
something like KISS, which is really built on the show. I mean, Nine Inch Nails did a
nice big show, but I don’t want to see Marilyn Manson in an arena filled with
50,000 people. It gets boring to me once it’s played, and I hear it all the time,
and I’d rather be around 500 kids who are really really into it,
than around 5,000 who are just sheep that are followers. I like the
underground element, I like something that’s different, something that’s original.
Once it’s marketable, then you have a lot of spin-offs. Right now you have a lot of
Nine inch Nails rip-off bands. You’re going to have a lot of Marilyn Manson rip-off
bands. It’s like when you had all those glam-rock, cock-rock bands in the ’80S
and then you had a dozen or two Pearl Jam bands. It was cool when there was
only one. So as long as it’s different and cutting-edge, it interests me. I get
bored very easily with something that’s overplayed and just pounded into my
head.
CW: Do you think the term ‘industrial1 has replaced the term ‘alternative’?
AZ: No, I think the term ‘industrial’ was coined before alternative.
CW: What’s the difference?
AZ: Oh wow…you really want me to answer that? Industrial music is just taken
from sounds, where alternative music was supposed to be just anything different. I mean, I can’t even answer that. It’s just two completely different forms of music. Industrial is as different to Goth as Goth is to punk. It’s just completely different, so I just can’t answer that question.
CW: What kind of music do you listen to when you’re not doing reviews for MK
Ultra? I mean, what does Alex Zander listen to when he’s at home and doing
dishes, or…
Indianapolis IN Kristy Venrick of The Azoic May 1997
AZ: …(laughs) when I’m not in the limelight? I think people tend to see me as
someone who would listen to bands like Ministry, or they look at me and think,
‘biker’ or ‘vampire’. But I like emotional music. I like Azoic a lot right now. I love
that band. I’ve never heard anything that’s moved me like it since Type O
Negative. I listen to Mortiis 1 like that dark wave music that comes out of
Norway. A lot of instrumental stuff, a lot of choirs, stuff where the synthesizers
make it sound like an orchestra. I like classical music. I listen to Vanessa Mae,
the violin player, because it’s modern. But as far as vocalists go, I listen to a lot of
Leonard Cohen. I prefer slow, dark, beautiful…and you can use those words
together, dark and beautiful, because it can be. I don’t listen to a lot of fast
music when I’m at home. I get enough of that when I’m out in the clubs or at the
shows. It’s nice to get away from it, when I can come home, light some candles,
and just get into it. I like a lot of music that I don’t even understand, like the
chants. Just very slow, emotional music.
CW: As far as cutting-edge bands, like Type O, and Mace out of Pittsburgh,
radio seems to have dropped the ball on them, and on spotlighting those kinds
of bands…
AZ: …what do you mean?
CW: Well, like Enigma, who’s had three albums out now, which I’m assuming is
the type of music you like to listen to yourself…
AZ: …yes, definitely…
CW: They’re a great band, they continue to put out CD’s, but at the same time,
you’re talking about a band that doesn’t get a great deal of radio airplay. Why
do you think radio shuns these types of bands?
AZ: Because you can’t turn an Enigma or Type O Negative song into a sneaker
commercial. Because it’s not the type of music that sells cars. Radio is total
bullshit anymore, and it used to be great. When I worked in radio, it was
wonderful. Everybody doesn’t relate to Type O Negative or Enigma…it’s not
happy music, they aren’t happy guys. It’s not all peace and love, unfortunately,
and these are bands that reflect the truth about life or death, and who sprinkle a
little bit of fantasy in, like Type O does. People would rather sing ‘Rock and Roll
All Nite’ or ‘Let Love Rule’ or ‘I’m Just A Girl’. It’s silly. It’s catchy. 1 mean, I don’t
mean to call KISS silly, but ‘Rock and Roll All Nite’ is a silly song.
CW: It’s an anthem.
AZ: Yeah, and it’s catchy. And Enigma doesn’t play the type of songs that
you’re going to sing in a drunken stupor, the way that you would sing ‘Mony
Mony’ or crap like that. Radio gears away from it. You just can’t call up a radio
station and request Type O Negative…you’ll get, ‘we’ll play it tomorrow’. I
mean, what’s that? What do you mean tomorrow? It’s a request isn’t it?
CW: You mentioned the term ‘catchy’. Do you think that Trent Reznor could
attribute Nine Inch Nails’ success to songs like ‘Closer’ and ‘Head Like A Hole’
that are catchy and that you can dance to?
AZ: I don’t think he was trying to write a hit with ‘Head Like A Hole’, but I’ve got
to wonder what he was thinking when he wrote ‘ Closer’. I mean,’ I want to fuck
you like an animal’…of course, people are going to sing that. I liked it when it
came out because it was offensive. I was like, yeah, I like to fuck like an animal.
But then again, every frat-fuck college-boy mama’s-boy is going to sing it too
because they think it’s cool. The thing that gets me is that the video is incredible,
and they bleep out the word fuck, like we don’t know what he’s saying, like
we’re stupid. It’s no different. Why don’t they just go ahead and say I want to
fuck you like an animal? Instead it‘s like, 1 wanna f–…and you’re like what? 1
want to eat you like an animal? Maybe Trent smelled a hit there, or maybe he
did it because he thought it would be so controversial that they wouldn’t play it.
But either way, it’s not his fault that junior’s listening to it I’m sure he didn’t mean
it for junior to listen to.
CW: Getting back to MK Ultra. basically, you’re talking about a publication that
has alot of interviews, a lot of reviews…what do you think sets MK Ultra apart from
more “mainstream” publications like Spin or Interview?
AZ: Let me first answer that by asking you if you think that it is different…
CW: Well, I was going to interject in there “besides the obvious.”
AZ: (Laughs) Well, I would hope that it is different. Spin is one incredible rock-n-
roll magazine, and I guess that’s why they went under and bankrupt the first year
because big Bob [Guccione] took the money away from little Bob. Spin, as far
as rock-n-roll goes, is what’s it’s all about. I mean, I could give a fuck about
Rolling Stone, and their charts. Spin doesn’t ignore anybody, and they really
don’t spend a lot of time trashing bands. Interview has always been a big
influence on me as a publisher because I’ve always been fond of anything Andy
Warhol has ever written or created. Interview is packed full of a lot of really short
interviews. I think MK Ultra’s interviews can be a little long, but when I’m editing, I
don’t want to do what my former editors did to me. I don’t want to cut the guts
out of an interview if it means something. I’d rather make it a long interview than
cut something out that’s going to make a point, and 1 think the people that we
talk to make a lot of points. But I think it’s darker, I think that there’s a large
market out there for readers that, before MK Ultra, didn’t really have a voice or
an outlet or a source of information. Spectre magazine called us ‘quickly
becoming the guide to alternative/underground music. That was a huge
fucking compliment. The review of our first issue in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette
said that we were the voice of underground metal. And at that point we didn’t
know where we were going, so we can’t blame them for not knowing the
difference between heavy industrial music and hard rock. But I think that’s what
we’re trying to do. In a newsprint format, there’s not a lot of pictures, there’s a lot
of text. There’s not a lot of money behind it, like Spin and Interview have, so we
fill those spaces with guts, with thoughts. I mean, I can’t afford to pay a great
photographer, so we fill it with words. And I think the problem with a magazine
like Interview now is that it’s alot of advertising. It’s alot of pretty pictures of
pretty people. As much as I’d like to do that, I’d rather have a magazine that’s
twice as big, going from 48 to 120 pages before I’d ever cut away any of the
text. And I think that’s what it’s all about. Somebody said once that when you
pick up an issue of MK Ultra, you want to read it, not look at all the pictures. You
don’t often see a copy of MK Ultra in a garbage can, like you see a lot of other
free city publications, like Nuvo. We’re not a restaurant guide. We hope to give
you something you won’t read anywhere else, and that was always the intent.
We let you read it here because you probably can’t read it somewhere else in a
publication that might offend people. When someone’s laughing at my friends
or even me because we don’t look like them, I’m offended by that. I’m
offended when I see a million people that look the same ridiculing two people
who might look a little off.
CW: So it’s original?
AZ: I hope so. I want to be original. That’s why I’m getting rid of the UFO
section. Man, that was great. When the guys from The Monitor and Rock Out
Censorship came to me and said, wow, UFO’s, Roswell, Project Blue Book, that’s
MK Ultra, isn’t it? And I was like, yeah, that’s government’s big secret, so it was
fun. But now, with The X Files, it’s fucking everywhere. There are alien t-shirts and
hats all over the place. It’s mainstream, so until it goes underground again? I’m
not going to talk about it. Sorry to people who enjoyed that, and we do get a lot
of letters about those articles, but it’s too commercial now.
CW: What surprises you most about your readers?
AZ: I’m amazed that most of our readers are college-educated, professionals,
and over thirty. I had no idea. But I guess I’m college-educated, and over thirty
myself, so… I just never thought…! thought it was going to be kids. I thought
college kids were going to be the readers, club kids. I didn’t know that there
were people over thirty and forty that were buying the music that we are into,
and there are…al ot. Some of these people listened to the music before I did.
And I get these letters from these people…parents who write to me and subscribe
because maybe their daughter brought it home from a record store…that just
blows my mind.
CW: Do you feel any responsibility toward your readers?
AZ: Sort of. To always give them something different. I got a letter from a girl in
Cleveland who said that they finally found a voice, and it was MK Ultra. So I
hope to never let them down, and I don’t think I have because I haven’t
received a negative letter yet, except for people being smart-asses about Shirley
Manson. So I feel responsible to always give them something different, to not
repeat anything, to try to keep every issue different and entertaining. And
according to feedback, it has been. I will try to keep them happy in their
miserable lives and their inner sorrow. When people are looking forward to it, I
feel responsible. And i get letters from people all of the time time asking about the next
issue, or I’ll get a new subscriber who can’t wait to get that first issue because
they think it’s so different. So yeah, 1 feel responsibility to always keep it fresh.
CW: You do receive a great deal of mail from your readers all over the world,
some of which, you publish. Is there much of your mail that’s critical of MK Ultra?
AZ: Honestly, it’s all been great. In the beginning, it was like, oh it’s a really good
magazine, but there were some typos. But again, at the time, 1 didn’t know what
I was doing. We were doing alot of if on a typewriter, copying it on a Xerox
machine, and just pasting it onto paper. So there wasn’t alot of time. But you
know, we’ll get letters from people at radio stations in Connecticut Maine,
California, Spain, Australia, and it keeps me going. It’s all really positive. The one
thing people say over and over, and I think in this issue we’ll print some of these
letters, that they’ve read it cover to cover, and couldn’t find one thing they
could bitch about. Man! I think that says it all. That’s about as critical as it’s
gotten so far. I mean, I do try to do things to raise controversy and piss people
off, but I haven’t done it. We ran phony abortion coupons, we have these
pseudo-personal ads that are just fucked up, and everyone likes them. So I think
I’m going to lay off the shock. Actually, I think I’ve quit doing the shock stuff,
and I’ll try to get more into the writing. But everything we’ve gotten has been
just praises, but then again, we’ve only gotten mail from people who read it.
CW: It’s pretty obvious that your readers are part of your motivation in
publishing MK Ultra…
AZ: …I’d say 99 percent of it.
CW: What’s the other one percent?
AZ: !’m never satisfied with anything that I do. I don’t think that anything that I
do is good enough. And when I do get the praise, I want to do something
better. You look at the first issue and the second issue, then you look at the last
issue and this issue, and there’s a world of difference. Any money that I make off
this thing goes right back into it to make it better. 1 mean, I would have one hell
of a nice fucking car right now if it wasn’t for MK Ultra. But it’s more important to
me to publish MK Ultra than it is to be able to drive to a nicer restaurant and
spend more money. So that one percent is just me…l’m always pushing myself,
and I think I’ll always do that. I’m very driven, and I’m driving myself fucking
mad.
CW: You’ve been called an asshole to work for. Do you consider yourself
demanding?
AZ: If a demanding person is an asshole, then I guess I’m guilty. I’m a very
giving person of people on my staff, and those who have been on my staff can’t
say otherwise. I think MK Ultra is in a cool position right now where we can pretty
much do anything we want to with bands…with any band. There are people
who definitely take advantage of that position and don’t want to do their jobs.
Of course, when they come on, they want to give it all, but once they’re part of
it it seems like they want to slack. What it comes down to is that I’ve got
subscribers who pay money, and who expect to see something in their mailbox
every other month. I’ve got advertisers who are paying us money for our readers
to buy their product. I’ve got people out there with a lot of expectations. All I
expect is someone to turn their articles in on time, or if I send someone to a show
to do an interview, 1 expect them to come back with something down on paper,
and when someone doesn’t, I have to let them go. It’s the same as anybody
going to a job. You don’t work at a restaurant to eat the food, you don’t work at
a record store because you want to hear the music, you don’t work at a clothing
store just to wear the clothes. You have a job to do, and at MK Ultra, they have
jobs to do, too. I have no use for dead weight, and that’s why you see staff
changes all the time. That’s why now we have writers on the east and west
coasts, because they get their stuff in on time, where someone here in
Indianapolis who practices the Generation X midwestern work ethic is just total
fucking bullshit I don’t know what’s with these people. 1 don’t have these
problems with people who write in Pittsburgh, Columbus, New York, Chicago, LA,
or Phoenix. I have the problem with people right here. And if you don’t want to
work, then go write for the Star or Nuvo.
CW: Do you see yourself, someone who started MK Ultra as carrying out a threat,
changing into a businessman?
Louisville KY The Electric Hellfire Club July 1997
AZ: No. I mean, I hope that eventually I can have better equipment and a
better working environment. But again, being that I’m driven and not satisfied, I
think that I’m always going to be pushing. Y’know, I can’t wait to see the next
thing that moves me.„l can’t wait to write about it. Type O Negative did that for
me. Electric Hellfire Club did that for me. Marilyn Manson at first, did that for
me. 1 think that as long as there’s a voice, there’s going to be something to talk
about, and I hope to always be the one. I mean, I don’t think Larry Flynt’s ever
slacked. And he’ll get the credit he deserves when this movie comes out. I
don’t think Andy Warhol ever slacked, and I don’t think Hunter Thompson
slacked. And he does more drugs than ever, or so he says. So businessman, no, I
just hope to have better tools to work with…that way I can build a bigger
machine.
CW: The people that you just mentioned, Hunter Thompson, Andy Warhol…even
as long as they’ve been around, they’re still considered artists, rather than
businessmen like Bob Guccione would be. Do you consider yourself more an
artist than just the publisher of this underground magazine?
AZ: I don’t know. I guess it’s an art form. But I don’t think I’m good enough to
be considered an artist, although there is a lot of crap out there created by
people who think they are artists. But there’s nothing romantic about being a
starving artist. I think I’m from the same school as people like Warhol, Thompson,
Tim Burton, Quentin Tarantino, something different, Avant Garde, I don’t know.
I’d rather see myself as a person who exploits artists and exposes artists’ work
rather than an artist myself. Writing is an art, and I suppose I would hope that my
contemporaries would see me as an artist. I would be flattered.
CW: Would you rather be known for your creativity, rather than your actual
product? For instance, when you think of Tim Burton, you don’t necessarily think
of ‘Batman’, or ‘Edward Scissorhands’. You might think more of the common
mood projected In his creations.
AZ: When I think of Tim Burton, I think of someone different. I think of the oddball
that made it. People finally came around and recognized what he was doing. I
would rather people see MK Ultra than the man behind it. It’s 100 percent me. I
mean, ¡ have a great deal of help, but if someone writes something that I don’t
agree with, I won’t print it, because I might not feel it’s cutting edge enough, or it
exploits women, …
CW: …because when it comes right down to it your name’s on it.
AZ: When it comes right down to it, I’m the one holding the checkbook. I’m the
one paying the bills.
CW: And your name’s on ¡t.
AZ: My name’s all over it
CW: The first time that I read MK Ultra, I was struck by the passion and creativity
of you and your contributors. Where do you find these people? And do you do
anything to encourage and/or influence their imput?
AZ: Well, for the first part, they find me. I have not gone out, although I wish I
could…I wish there was a way to find these people, but they seem to have found
me, and I’m happy with the people who have stayed with us, that I can tolerate,
because I’m not very tolerant. I guess it’s something within them that moves
them. Gail from New York, and Colin from LA, they’re the very passionate writers.
I’ve got to meet these people. I mean, right now, we just talk on the phone. I
met Colin once in Wisconsin at an Electric Hellfire Club concert, and Gail Worley
flew in from New York for our Halloween show. And these people are intense. Very
normal people to be hanging out with me, but they’re a little off in the head.
And we all believe so much in what we do that we will do it for nothing. Just
having our work out there is satisfying. I mean, I don’t make anything off of MK
Ultra. Nothing. Gail gets nothing. Colin gets nothing. But they do a bunch of
work, and it is passionate. I think it’s encouraging for them when they see it in
print. And MK Ultra isn’t just regional, it’s all over the world now, which shocks
me. But I think that that’s where they get they’re satisfaction, and they think it’s
cool. Gail said that she got some calls from different record companies like
Warner and Elektra who were excited to hear that she worked for MK Ultra. I
mean, these people respect what we do? That’s fucking amazing. I mean,
they’re all about money, while I’m about the people who make their money…or
(laughs) where they lose money. But they’re passionate because they believe in
it, and they believe in what they do. And I believe in what they do one hundred
percent and I’m sure that they will write for me for a very long time.
CW: I’ve read and listened to some of the interviews that you’ve done…
AZ: …very jolly, right? Shining happy people!
CW: Do you enjoy Interviewing?
AZ: I ¡ove it. I love interviewing because I’m a shy person. A lot of people may
find that very hard to believe, but I’m a very shy person by nature. And in interviewing, you
have a reason to talk to these people number one, number two is that I want to
talk to these people…+hey are very hard to get to in the business, I guess unless
you’re a groupie, which I’m not. I don’t have the tits for it. As much as I have
lost faith in the human race, there are a number of people who make it worth
living, and that’s why I’m still here. I love meeting people, and these people are
so interesting to me because their music moves me, and although I don’t let on
that I’m a fan, I think that by the time we’re finished talking, they sense it
because i know what they are singing about. I get it. I won’t talk to people who
don’t move me. I’m not assigned to interviews anymore, so I don’t have to go
out and talk to boring, bullshit artists like that. I don’t have to go talk to Pearl
Jam, or Black Crowes…like I was sent to talk to them. I mean, 1 enjoyed talking to
them, and i enjoyed talking to Blind Melon. But their music did not do for me
what Type O Negative, Hellfire Club, and Garbage did for me. I enjoy being
around those people, and establishing friendships with them.
CW: Has anyone ever intimidated you? Either you were afraid to approach
them, or while you were interviewing, you were like, oh shit…
Columbus OH Peter Steele Dec 1994
AZ: I was worried about interviewing Peter Steele from Type O. My God, and
that interview will stand the test of time. I wish every interview could be that
intense because I was inquiring on everything, and I asked every question I
wanted to. And he answered every question with intensity and passion…it was a
wonderful interview, and we see each other now all the time, whenever we can,
and it’s fun. An interview I dreaded doing…I was so disappointed with Scott Ian
from Anthrax that I ripped the tape out of the case and threw it in the trash can
in Pittsburgh because I guess I woke him up too early, and we went to have
coffee, and he was a dick. But I guess that comes with the territory. Intimidated…um, more like embarrassed…my face was-beet red the first time I met Shirley Manson, just because I wrote that thing naming her as the most desirable artist of *95, and there she was standing next to me after I knew she had read that. But intimidating, well I’m not that easily intimidated at all. I
don’t get nervous anymore, and I was nervous’ at first. My first interview was with
Gene Simmons years ago, and he was childhood idol. And I guess it kínda did it
there, because once you realize that he’s just another man, just a person that’s
making a living, then it’s no big deal.
CW: You mention artists like Shirley Manson, Peter Steele, and Gene
Simmons…these are all people with whom you’ve formed somewhat of a
relationship with…
AZ: …I like to think so.
CW: What do you think of when things happen, like when Peter Steele posed
nude for Playgirl?
AZ: I laughed my ass off. I mean, to see that, and I confess, I saw It…I mean, how
could you miss it? (Laughs…) To talk to him and then see him do that, to me, I
was like, hey Pete’s making the money. And he admits it, he did it for money.
But I don’t see that as him. But 1 don’t look at Peter and think of him doing a
layout either 1 would much rather see Shirley Manson do something like that.
(Laughs)
CW: What feature or interview are you the most proud of?
AZ: I’m still very very proud of the first Peter Steele interview. I think it broke alot
of ground and covered alot of territory, and I think it set the pattern that
hopefully MK Ultra will always follow. We touch on a lot of subjects that are
personal, dark, and humorous. And we try to expose a lot of bands that people
have never seen or heard of. But more recently, as far as a feature goes, we
have this cover story with Shirley Manson that I think just comes full circle. It starts
out at twelve o’clock and by the time you go around the it comes back to twelve o’clock. I wish that I could write like that all the time. And I didn’t mean for it to come out that way. 1 was just writing about an experience, and about my problem with insomnia that plagues me. Maybe people won’t like it, but l‘m very happy with it, and I hope that Garbage likes it.
CW: You mentioned that you’re somewhat shy…would you consider MK Ultra
your alter ego?
AZ: I wouldn’t say so much an alter ego. I mean, I am a very shy person, and
when I’m Alex Zander on stage at an MK Ultra event, I’m out there representing
the magazine, and I’m more approachable. There’s a reason for people to
come up and talk to me. But if I’m out somewhere where people don’t know
who I am, they look at me and think that I’m either a biker, or a lunatic or
something. But with MK Ultra, I get into character at events, and it’s fun. So it’s
not so much an alter ego as it is an extension of myself…it’s my voice saying, hey,
come and talk to me and look at me.
CW: So you’re originally from Pittsburgh, and you went to the University of
Pittsburgh. What brought you to Indianapolis?
AZ: A woman. And I’m not going to make her ego any bigger by saying who
she is. It was the stupidest thing 1 ever did…the most stupid reason to move
anywhere. I’m as romantic as a person can be, but I’ll never make that mistake
again, and 1 don’t advise anyone else to do so, either.
CW: Who are some of your influences, and what about them influences you?
Not so much in influencing MK Ultra, but who influences Alex Zander in publishing
it in creating your articles, in who you interview, in the way you look…
AZ: In Pittsburgh, when I was part of Delta Helter Skelter, our anti-fraternity, we
were saying that we were the prodigal sons of, y’know, these people. And they
said that I was the prodigal son of Dr. Johnny Fever, Jim Morrison, and Dracula. I
can say that Dr. Johnny Fever, the character, was a great influence on me, as far
as turning me on to radio. When I was young, at 13 and 14, and saw WKRP, I
didn’t know that he was stoned. I just thought that he was cool. So I guess as far
as being outrageous from fictional influence, it was Dr. Johnny Fever. Not
Howard Hesseman, but the character that he played on WKRP. Jim Morrison, I’II
tell you what. f I had never read that biography, or never heard the song “The
End”, I don’t know what the fuck I’d be doing right now. I’d probably be playing
clarinet or saxophone for some fledgling symphony in the city, with barely
enough money to support myself. And Andy Warhol is a huge influence. After
reading his books, 1 got in the habit of always taking a camera with me wherever
I went. Warhol said that you could be weird and successful too. And I would
say Hunter Thompson, Dr. Gonzo himself. I hope to be as intense a writer as he is
someday. And that is one hell of a goal to live up to, because he’s legendary as
far as I’m concerned. And these people are all very intense people. I mean,
Morrison, intense. Warhol intense.
CW: You’ve got a pretty impressive vampire film and literature collection…
AZ: Have you been talking to Tommy Victor’s ex-wife? (Laughs)
CW: What it is about vampires that you find so intriguing?
AZ: What makes you ask me that?
CW: Well, when you look at your movie collection, and you look at your book
collection, it’s hard to overlook the subject matter.
AZ: It just happens that I like fiction and fantasy as much as other people might
like football and cars. You can go into somebody’s house and they might have
a million Sports Illustrated videos and back issues, plaques, helmets and shit. But
you walk into somebody’s house and they have twenty books on vampires, and
they’re a freak. I would say that it’s not so much just vampires, but the undead. I
never consciously meant to build a collection of these things. I have just as
many movies on zombies. There’s something about life after death, and a
vampire just happens to be the most romantic, the most legend of these
legends. And I should say these fictitious legends, because I don’t want anyone
to think that 1 believe that there are vampires. If there were vampires, I’d love to
be one, because I’d love to go around making people’s lives miserable…
CW: …you are really opening it up there.
AZ: (laughs) Payback. I have an amazing collection of zombie movies. I
mean, “Night of the Living Dead”, every version made.”Dawn of the Dead”,
every version made.”Day of the Dead”, except that I don’t have that in a box.
“Return of the Living Dead”, “The Evil Dead”, “Dead Alive”, “The
Reanimator”,…there’s something about it. I don’t think that it ends here, or at
least I hope that it doesn’t. I don’t believe that we’re all going to grow wings
and float around in the clouds. l‘d live to believe, or I wish, that we could go on
living as a Frankenstein monster, or a vampire or zombie. It’s just fun to think that
you could come back, and do what whatever you want, or whatever you have
to do. And I think that vampires are cool. They wear the coolest clothes, they
come out at night, they seduce women and the women can seduce men, or if
you’re into Anne Rice novels, the men can seduce each other. But I like Marilyn
Monroe, Jim Morrison, and Andy Warhol just as much, and they’re all dead, too.
I guess it’s easier to have fascination and faith in the dead than it is the living.
CW: Nevertheless, you have quite a few horror films in your collection. What, if
anything, do you find shocking?
AZ: Somebody sent me some coprophilia videos…coprophilia is people who
l have a fascination with feces, people who like to have themselves defecated and who like to defecate on other people, and they’re sexually aroused by this. It was shocking, and as sick as this my seem to people, I thought it was funny. Not because I was amused by the defecation and feces…it was more the fact that someone would feel so little of themselves that they would let themselves be videotaped having a huge loaf pinched on their face. My friend Bart turned me on to the movies of Jim Van Bebber and Mike King. They’re
graphic, and were really shocking at first. And then someone mailed me these
German torture videos where as far as I can tell a woman was kidnapped, and
beaten nearly to death. I mean, she was beaten and sexually abused in ways
that I can’t even explain…it kind of turned my stomach. And then there are snuff
videos. People send me videos of people killing themselves, like news footage.
The Bud Dwyer thing, someone sent me three camera angles of that, and in slow
motion. And it’s not like what Hollywood makes…there’s not a huge splatter of
blood and brains on the wall…I mean, he just dropped. But things that shock me
are on CNN. When I can watch our country ignoring our own starving and
homeless people, but helping people in other countries, that shocks me. It
shocks me to think that we won’t educate our own, but we’ll send missionaries to
other countries to teach them Christianity and the Bible. It shocks me and it hurts
me. As much as I think that people should get up and help themselves, there are
some people that aren’t strong enough, who are held back by the system. I
think I’ve lost complete faith in the system, and that shocks me, because we live
in a land of opportunity, and not everyone can reach if. If I’m walking down the
street, and 1 see this family living under a bridge in a box, because he got laid off
from this job that he worked at for 25 years, but only one month away from his
pension, and they can’t survive…or that a factory closes and there are no other
jobs around. Í grew up in a part of the country where when I was in high school’,
all the industries closed down, and there was no work. I got the hell out of there.
I didn’t have family keeping me there, so I packed my bags, got on a bus, and
went on to do this shit… But I think that’s what shocks me.
CW: So there is good in you?
AZ: Is that good? I mean, I’m what the system considers a rebel…what they
consider inappropriate. I have no faith in the system. This system is supposed to
be all good, but I don’t see it.
CW: But you are capable of compassion.
AZ: I’m very compassionate. Look at the music that I write about.
CW: The Satanism label has been out there. It may due-to the stereotype that
goes along with the type of music that you review, or because of your publishing
of gravestones in MK Ultra. Like you said, it’s a dark publication, and people
associate it automatically…
AZ: …but that’s associating darkness with Satanism, which are not alike at all. 1
had a nickname when I was DJ in Columbus…they called me “Satan-Boy”. And
it was just a fun nickname because I was kinda naughty…I was infamous for
tempting girls with sexual taboos that maybe they hadn’t been tempted with
before. Nothing like S & M, or mutilation, or torture…just fun stuff. I was always
exploring. But then I moved here, and I guess I’m at the edge or right in the
middle of the Bible Belt, as far as I can tell, and it’s very conservative. And the
people who associated White Zombie with Satanism kinda pushed White Zombie
to the ‘Say You Love Satan1 type t-shirts, Route 666 stickers, and things like that.
They look at it as all tongue-in-cheek, and it’s very funny. But then there are
bands like Electric Hellfire Club and Marilyn Manson who take Satanism very
seriously, and let me point out that when I talk of Satanism in the terms 1 do the
Hellfire Club and Marilyn Manson, there is a big difference between Satanism
and devil worship. Within Satanism, there is no heaven or hell or devil or god.
That’s their belief, and their belief alone. Y’know, I’ve worn black my whole life.
My family made fun of me when I was a kid, it’s just me. Richard Lewis wears
black on stage and during his interviews and no one calls him a Satanist. Priests
and nuns wear black, and no one calls them Satanists. And there are priests that
are far more evil than I could ever be, or Marilyn Manson could ever be. I mean,
Marilyn Manson isn’t out there molesting children, then saying he’s sorry and
thinking that he’s going to heaven because he’s confessed and repented. I’m
not a devil worshiper, and I’m not a Satanist. People just confuse darkness with
Satanists. There are dark elements, like voyeurism, lust, obsession, perversion. I
don’t consider those Satanic…it’s just human nature. I am, for instance, by
nature, attracted to women. I, by nature, want to see what they look like naked.
I by nature, want to feel. I feel envy sometimes, I feel greed sometimes, I feel
pride. I am proud of MK Ultra, and that’s one of the seven deadly sins. My God,
I’m sorry. These are just all human emotions.
CW: Do you believe in a higher power?
AZ: I’m not going to get into that.
CW: What about karma?
AZ: I am a firm believer in karma. I think that if you do good things, good things
will come to you. And I’ve been let down by this a lot. I guess in a way, I live by
the golden rule, do unto others. I want to help my fellow man. I just wish
sometimes my fellow man would help me. I’m very lucky to have good friends,
and 1 have faith. When I’m down, and just when I’m thinking everyone is terrible
and selfish, I come across someone who revives my belief in human nature, that
there are good people out there. And I don’t mean good people like Mother
Theresa or Sally Struthers. I’m talking about good-hearted people that, if they’re
able to help somebody, they do. I felt that when I was hitchhiking one time. I
got stuck three states away from home in the freezing pouring-down rain in
December, and I thumbed across three states. I made it in five hours, because
of the people I met I was broke, and this guy gave me twenty bucks to get
something to eat. And I never mentioned to him that I had no money, and I
didn’t mention that I was starving. And this guy just gave me twenty dollars and
told me to get something to eat at my next stop. It’s people like that who renew
my faith in human spirit, and that’s karma. I think that deep down, I’m a very
compassionate person. And I think that if I help so-and-so out here and give
them a break, somebody down the road will give me a break when I need it.
And it’s come true a few times. But am I Satanic?, no. I don’t have anything
against people in the Church of Satan, and I mean Anton LeVey’s Church of
Satan not people who drink blood and sacrifice babies, and those types of
things. I think Thomas Thora of the Electric Hellfire Club is a great person. He*s a
very intelligent person, and he’s fun to be around. But he’s not gonna take
anybody’s shit, you know that. He’s a very talented person, too. My point is that
if he’s evil, then you have a lot of darker, more dangerous forces to deal with out
there than Thomas Thorn.
CW: With the trials life has put you through, I think it’s important that people
know that MK Ultra isn’t just some rich kid’s pet project. You’re obviously
drawing from experiences you’ve had. You’re obviously drawing from your own
feelings and passion. Can you identify an experience or event in your life that
has left the most impact on you?
AZ: First, I should point out that no. I’m not a rich kid, and I’m not from a rich
family. I’ve had a very hard, tough life. I’ve been on the streets. Everything I
have goes into the magazine. Someone once commented that my whole life is
MK Ultra, and yeah, maybe it is my life right now. I’ve starved and suffered and
fought for this. And right now, it is my whole life. I hope to one day share it with
somebody, but it’s not that time yet. But to answer your question, the one thing
that changed everything for me was having my heart broken. It has atot to do
with the type of music that I listen to. I’ve always liked emotional, intense music,
and horror films. So no, I’m not going to say that it had anything to do with “the
dark side”. But when I had my heart broken,! never thought that that would
happen. I thought that I was a strong person, I thought that I played it safe, not
putting myself in a position where I would fall in love. My relationships were
always safe. I would get myself involved in long distance relationships, because
it would be romantic, yet there was no chance of deep emotional involvement.
And then I had my heart torn out. I think that when it happened and that’s when it
all changed. And that may be why I bury myself in this work.
CW: So, having your heart broken was, in a way, a coming of age? If that what
made you what you are now?
AZ: If you want to put it that way. I think it’s 100% of what made me what I am
now, as far as my appearance and the way I live. It’s been said that I’m
intimidating, and I don’t mean to be, but maybe subconsciously, that’s my
defense mechanism. I’m not into getting my heart broken again. There’s a song
by The Sisters of Mercy called ‘I Was Wrong1. And I think that song pretty much
says it all for me. And I was wrong. So I bury myself in work and journalism. Right
now, with MK Ultra, I travel a great deal from here to there and back, and I think
it would be impossible to have a relationship unless my significant other was
strong enough to deal with that or free enough to go with me. It’s very much a
part of my lifestyle, and having my heart broken is why I’m not in one place for a
very long time.
CW: One of your hobbies that people are familiar with is photographing grave
stones, crypts, and the like. How did you get started with that?
AZ: I grew up in a part of eastern Ohio where there were a lot of very old
cemeteries. It was pretty much the center of the French & Indian War. There was
a time when things were hand-crafted. Every time that I look at a huge
cathedra! built centuries ago, it amazes me that there weren’t cranes and
machinery putting these blocks together, and it’s still standing. Unfortunately, in
the age we live in, buildings and cars are throwaways. They aren’t built to last
and stand the test of time. But where I grew up, there were a lot of elaborate,
beautiful headstones and monuments to the dead. I spent a great deal of time
in cemeteries…they were pretty much my playground. I lived about fifty feet
from a gigantic cemetery. And these headstones were old. A stone’s throw from
by backyard under a tree, there was the gravesite of the first person legally
hanged in the state of Ohio by a judge. And I guess since I was always into
history, I found that there’s a great deal of history in cemeteries. It just grew into
exploring, and keeping a photographic record of what I found. I loved the effort
that people would put into these old monuments. I despise the new cemeteries
with the headstones that are flat so they can mow over them. I think that a
person’s life means more to other people than that. It’s a tribute to somebody’s
life to give them a beautiful monument, even if they didn’t do anything
significant. If someone loved them, and they were loved enough for someone
to give them a lasting impression that stood the test of time, that’s the greatest
monument of all to someone’s life. It goes back to the undead thing…those
tombs that have stood there forever just fascinates me. When I see a grave
stone from the 1600-1700’s that still looks as good as it did when it was crafted,
that’s beautiful to me. And a part of their life goes on…their memory. I think that
far too few people are appreciated. We can appreciate our presidents and our
heroes by giving them monuments, but we can’t appreciate our friends and
family. I hope that somebody thinks enough of me to at least put some cool
saying on my tombstone.
CW: What part of history are you most interested by?
AZ: That always changes. For years I was into the French & Indian war, and a
guy named Lewis Wetzel, who was a crazy man who lived in caves in Ohio, and
he ran wild through the woods. That just fascinated me. I love history. I love
reading about religion. I have books on so many religions from Jewish to
Mormon to Catholic. I love reading about traditions in religions, and things that
people were willing to die for. I’m crazy about history, because if it weren’t for
history, where would we be now?
CW: What, if anything, do you think you’d be willing to die for?
AZ: Jesus…damn that’s a deep question…
CW: You walked into it.
AZ: There was a time when I could have died for my stepmother. There was a
tíme when I could have died for a friend. And there was a time when I could
have died because I was tired of living. I guess I could die for anything that I
believe in, but I’m not ready to die yet. I am not done. So ask me that
tomorrow.
CW: What mark do you want to leave? If it happened tomorrow, what cool
saying do you want to have on your tombstone?
AZ: I hope that the mark that I leave behind is that I made a difference, and that. is a big mark to leave. But I want to make a difference. I guess my mission right now is to let people know that there is more than what you are being offered by the mainstream media. There are a lot of VanGogh’s out there. VanGogh wasn’t appreciated until years after he died. He sold one painting in his lifetime. And I want to find the VanGogh’s of today, and make their lives a little more worth living, and a little happier while they’re here, rather than them dying and
becoming legends later. A sad example is the guy from Sublime who died of a
heroin overdose, and they have a hit song now long after he’s dead. I don’t
think that people are appreciated enough while they’re here. And I want to find
the underground musicians and writers and artists, and at least give them their
fifteen minutes of fame. And as far as what they can put on my tombstone I
don’t think I’ve reached that point yet.
CW: There are artists that have reached their highest success after they’ve
passed away. You can’t deny the public’s fascination with artists like…well, like
Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain although I don’t want to lump people like Kurt Cobain
in with people like Morrison or Marilyn Monroe. But there’s obviously some
fascination with it.
AZ: Well, none of these people were happy people, either, if you think about it. I
think they were all victims of the entertainment business. I mean, when Marilyn
was getting older and the President and his brother had finished
having their way with her, she was a throwaway. No one had any use for her.
Yes she wanted to be a star, but that’s Hollywood for you. Jim Morrison was
pushed. The movie portrayed him to be a drunken asshole! I mean, he did
drugs, and he did drink, but he wasn’t that bad when The Doors started. It was
fame and the business he was in that pushed him to do what he didn’t want to
do. He never wanted to be in front of thousands of people. He sang with his
back to the audience most of the time. He got drunk because, and I can
sympathize with this, it was the only way he could go on and face people. He
was a shy person. And Kurt Cobain, Jesus Christ, this was a guy in a three piece
band, and I’m happy as hell that he got to see some of his success, but I think
they’re making one hell of a lot more money off him now than he got to see in
his short lifetime. He was a tortured artist, and a victim of the entertainment
business as it is now. They exploit and use their artists, and it’s a bunch of fat old
bald guys getting richer and richer off of young stars.
CW: Which do you think is more powerful, the tribute of the fans being
fascinated with bands like Nirvana, actresses like Marilyn Monroe, or artists like
Andy Warhol or do you think the exploitation after their death is more powerful?
AZ: In what way?
CW: Well, for example, it would have been easy after Elvis Presley died to just
stop. Or it would have been easy after Marilyn Monroe died to maybe just put
out a couple biographies, and that would be it.
AZ: People like Marilyn are timeless. I don’t think anyone would be able to
duplicate what she did, although people try. But the fans won’t let them die.
And as long as the fans are there, the fat cats are going to keep churning out
product Books, pictures, t-shirts. As long as people will buy it, they’ll make
money off of it. I just wish the money would go back to the families. I look at
Andy Warhol’s grave…I go there a lot when I’m in Pittsburgh…and it bugs the hell
out of me. Whether or not you think he was great he was the most successful
artist that ever lived. He had his hands in everything. Publishing, painting,
writing, photography, film, music. He did it all. I wish that I could do that, and I
want to do it, or at least I will try. But he has this two foot by one foot block in a
hill that is sliding down. The graveyard is literally sliding down this hill in Pittsburgh
from the subway vibrations. And I think that he deserves so much more than
that. But I don’t think Andy Warhol is as marketable as Kurt Cobain or Jim
Morrison or Marilyn Monroe, because Warhol was looked at as a freak. But
somebody’s making money off of him. But at least Warhol made sure his money
went to scholarships and things like that.
CW: A comparison I want your thoughts on is the one between Nirvana and
Blind Melon. Nirvana and Blind Melon both achieved somewhat of the same
level of success prior to the death of their respective lead singers. But then
Nirvana seems to have gone much further…
AZ: Nirvana was more marketable than Blind Melon. No one’s making money
off of Shannon Hoon, who was a real cool guy, by the way. He was a very cool
guy. And a misunderstood guy. Blind Melon was more of a 60’s type of a band.
I talked to their bass player when we were hanging out, and he compared
Shannon to Janis Joplin…they came from that school, where Nirvana was garage
rock…l hate the word ‘grunge’. It was more trendy than Blind Melon. They were
more successful. The numbers were better. Nirvana had Geffen records behind
them…the “almighty powerful” Geffen records. I mean, Kurt’s been dead for a
long timé and they still come out with a new album every year. That’s total
bullshit and next year, there’s going to be another album out. I just think it’s sad
that they both had the same problem with the same drug. But 1 think they died
for different reasons. I think that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain, and heroin
killed Shannon Hoon.
CW: Do you think that has anything to do with it? That one was a suicide and
one was an overdose
AZ: I consider the first time you stick a needle with heroin in your arm as suicide,
no matter what. Whether you die from it the first time, or you die from it five
years after you start, it’s suicide the first time you shoot up.
CW: But Kurt Cobain putting both barrels of a shotgun in his mouth gave the
record company the opportunity to disassociate him with heroin abuse. Where
with Shannon Hoon, the last thing he’s known for is that needle in his arm.
AZ: Kurt Cobain had a problem with heroin. They talked about how it had to do
with his ulcers and things, but 1 think that fame had alot to do with that. Kurt
Cobain wasn’t a rock star. They made him a rock star. And I don’t think that
Shannon Hoon was a rock star. They made him a rock star, too, for a short while.
With Cobain, his wife, and this is just how I feel…obviously he tried to commit
suicide when they were in Europe. When he did commit suicide, his wife was
away, and the baby was away, and when a guy’s in a suicidal state, you don’t
leave him by himself. I mean, the guy wanted to die. You don’t leave him
alone. And if she loved him so much, how could Courtney Love let her album
come out a week and a half after he died? She didn’t have to be there to pull
the trigger, and I don’t think there’s this big conspiracy. But I’ve read that she
had him murdered, and maybe she did…I don’t care. She may as well have
done it, because she wasn’t there. When someone’s that depressed, you don’t
leave them by themselves…I’ve been there. I’ve wanted to die. I don’t now,
but…you just don’t leave someone alone. It’s the final straw. When you think
you’re alone, and you have no reason to live, then you’re not going to want to
live. I think Kurt Cobain is very brave for what he did. At least he had the balls to
take it into his own hands and fulfill his ultimate destiny. He just wanted to go.
But maybe he wouldn’t have if he would have had a different woman, or if
Courtney had been there. But it all goes back to heroin when you look at it. He
was fighting an addiction, he didn’t want to go on doing smack anymore, and
that’s a terrible thing to live with.
At this point Alex and I took a break to shed the mood we had gotten
ourselves into. We tried to make each other laugh (Alex has a tremendous sense
of humor) and pilfered the last of the beer from the ‘fridge.
CW: Where do you see yourself and MK Ultra five years from now?
AZ: That’s one of the questions you learn to ask when you’re in school. Man, I
don’t know. I mean, I know where I’d like to be, but I didn’t see MK Ultra where it
is right now. First of all, I didn’t see MK Ultra in Indianapolis, then going to
Chicago, and I certainly didn’t see it going any further than Pittsburgh. I thought
it would be just a city entertainment newspaper when we started. But I can’ t
wait to see where it takes me. I don’t want to go backwards, and (laughing) it
certainly can’t get any worse than it is now. I think that MK Ultra is at it’s lowest
point now because it’s being restricted by being in Indianapolis. But I don’t
have a lot of distractions here. In five years, I see MK Ultra in Chicago, I see it
having a lot to do with the underground music scene there, and I see Nine Inch
Nails reaching Elvis Presley proportions, as far as being accepted. There was a
time when they couldn’t show Elvis’ hips on TV, now it’s funny. I see MK Ultra
riding along with it, but breaking away, too. I see Chicago, I see making a
difference, breaking some bands, I see expanding. If all goes well, it will be
much bigger, and it will be a force to be reckoned with. It’ll make a difference.
CW: Do you think the scene in whatever city you happen to be in influences MK
Ultra, or does your main influence come from elsewhere?
AZ: I’m not necessarily influenced by any city. I think there is an MK Ultra
“scene”, but there’s definitely no scene here in Indianapolis. A scene comes
together, and people come together. But in Indianapolis, everyone is selfish,
everyone is backstabbing, and nobody wants to share the spotlight And that’s
why I think that MK Ultra doesn’t fit in well here. We’re considered an east coast
magazine, and they love us on the west coast, although I don’t know why. I
guess it’s because we really are different. I don’t see MK Ultra being a part of
any scene…we’II always dance on the edge of what the scene perceives as
what’s in. As much as I want to see Trent Reznor be Elvis Presley, I think that once
he does, we’ll just go the other way. If Peter Steele became Elvis Presley, maybe
not, but I don’t think he will, so I won’t have to worry about that.
CW: Peter Steeie as the fat Elvis dead on the toilet? Or Peter Steele the success
Elvis was?
AZ: i don’t think Peter would let himself go that way. Ever. But he’ll take a lot with
him when he goes, you can be sure of that.
CW: Peter’s written some pretty unreal stuff, some of which I’ve read. Do you
see MK Ultra publishing anything he’s written?
AZ: I don’t think people take what Pete says seriously, and I don’t think that Peter
takes what he says seriously. Sometimes I’m sure he does, but I think the more
people look up to what he says, the more he just laughs at them. I don’t know,
though, I’m not Peter Steele. But the Gospel According to Peter Steele… I think
I’d much rather read a chapter of what he has to scry than anything written by
Matthew, John, or Luke. It’s much more fun, and makes for more interesting
reading. He gets to the point.
CW: You mentioned fading away from some features published in past issues.
One thing I’ve not only read in MK Ultra, but also experienced at MK Ultra
functions, is the tongue-in-cheek humor that is very much a part of it all. Will you
continue with that? Will you continue basically flaunting what peóple think you
are?
AZ: I don’t know…! don’t think that I’ve really let people figure out who I am. I
mean, I think that I’ve said a lot more than what I thought I’d say in this interview.
But I think I’ll always be a bit of a smart-Alex. (Laughs.) Was that tongue-in-
cheek enough? But I’ve got to get away from what people expect to see.
Don’t expect to see more of what you’ve already seen, but expect it to be as
unexpected as what you have seen. I don’t like to repeat what we’ve done.
Although we’ve run two Peter Steele interviews and two Gene Simmons
interviews, I think that we were talking to them at different periods of time. I
mean, we were talking to Gene Simmons when he was in Kiss without make-up,
then we were talking to him when he was getting ready for the reunion tour. We
talked to Peter Steele before Type O broke and had a gold album, then we
talked to him afterward. It’s all about things 1 like. You’re going to see more
features about people like Mortiis and these bands from Norway that no one
knows about. That is the ground that we haven’t broken into yet, and I’m really
looking forward to it. We’re going to stay dark but we’re not going to be evil.
We’re not going to portray an evil image anymore…we’ll let people perceive us
that way if they want. But I’m not going to make light of it anymore. I’11 find
other things to make light of.
CW: Since you don’t intend to let people get to know you ‘all they way’, what is
it about Alex Zander that you want people to know that they don’t know
already?
AZ: I want people to realize that I really do care about what I’m doing, whether they
agree with it or not. 1 want people to know that at least I took a chance and that
I tried. I don’t want anybody to tell me that I can’t do anything, because they’ll
find out that they’re wrong. I’m a fighter and a survivor, and I have a lust for
what I want to do, and I’m far from it. I want people to know that I am a
dreamer, and that I’m making my dreams come true. And anybody can do
that, you just have to believe in yourself first.